Inclusive Homes and Community.

Sam Drummond  00:01

This episode of Building Inclusion was recorded on the lands of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples across Australia. I acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which this podcast is recorded and listened to, and I pay my respects to elders past and present. I'm Sam Drummond, lawyer, writer and disability advocate, and you're listening to building inclusion, a podcast about Australia's Disability Strategy presented by Powerd Media. Australia's Disability Strategy is a national roadmap guiding governments, businesses and communities to work together to build a more inclusive Australia. This episode, we're focusing on inclusive homes and communities. Inclusive homes and communities are at the heart of what makes life accessible and fulfilling for people with disability, yet too often physical, social and systemic barriers can make it difficult for people to live independently, participate in community life and access essential services. Australia's Disability Strategy recognises these challenges and sets out a national vision to address them. Its aim is to ensure that everyone can live in homes and communities that are safe, welcoming and adaptable to their needs.

Sam Drummond  01:18

Hi Paul, how you doing? 

Paul Nunnari  01:20

Hi Sam, great to see you. How are you?

Sam Drummond  01:22

Good to see you. 

Paul Nunnari  01:23

Welcome to sunny Sydney.

Sam Drummond  01:24

Beautiful. It's bit rainy today.

Paul Nunnari  01:26

 Bit rainy. It'll hold off, though. 

Sam Drummond  01:27

When you think of Australia

Sam Drummond  01:29

one of the most iconic landmarks that comes to mind is the Sydney Harbor Bridge. 

Voice Over  01:34

In Sydney,

Voice Over  01:35

the outlook was brightened by the completion of the mighty Harbor Bridge, begun in 1923 the largest arch bridge in the world. Lang snipped the ribbon and the bridge was officially open.

Sam Drummond  01:45

But did you know it wasn't always accessible to people with disability? That's exactly what Paul Nunnari set out to change. Paul is an Australian Paralympian, disability advocate and community leader. I had the privilege of meeting him and experiencing walking on the Harbour Bridge for the very first time, a moment that brought his advocacy vividly to life. 

Paul Nunnari  02:06

Hi, I'm Paul Nunnari I'm CEO of Inclusively Made, but prior to my role at inclusively made, I had the wonderful opportunity to work for the New South Wales Government, and part of my role was looking at ways we can overlay universal design across our events, our infrastructure and our place making. And one of the projects I was working on at the time was making the Sydney Harbour Bridge wheelchair accessible. And this is one of the lifts that was installed, one of two, so the other one is on the northern side of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, down at Milton's point. And these, these were opened in 2018 to coincide with the Sydney hosting the Invictus Games. So yeah, a really great addition to, you know, the bridge 80,81, years after the bridge was opened, we celebrated the opening of these lifts which have given, dare I say, thousands of people access up into the walkway, where people such as myself, wheelchair users, particularly, never had that opportunity. And a really beautiful example of universal design that hasn't impacted with the beautiful heritage nature of the bridge and its surroundings, like it's just, it's almost like it was built part of it when it was when it was open. Now, you know, almost 90 odd years ago.

Sam Drummond  03:38

But that was 81 years without accessibility. 

Paul Nunnari  03:42

Yep

Sam Drummond  03:42

Paul is a wheelchair user. He has previously worked with the New South Wales Department of Premier and Cabinet, where his role was to help ensure government events were accessible and inclusive. During his time there, he was invited to directly share his ideas with the premier shaping policy from the ground up.

Paul Nunnari  03:59

And I said, my name is Paul Minari. I work in your department. I'm a wheelchair user, and I would love to see the wheelchair the Sydney hull bridge become wheelchair accessible. Is there an option for us to put some lifts in? And I sent it off, and I thought for sure I would never get a response back. And about two weeks later, I got a response from one of the policy advisors saying the premier really likes this idea. We want to talk to you about it. How do we make it happen and the rest is history. 

Sam Drummond  04:31

What does it mean for you if a tourist attraction or a monument like this is accessible compared to when it wasn't accessible?

Paul Nunnari  04:43

Yeah, that's an awesome question, because that was really the catalyst for why, why I was so passionate about the bridge becoming accessible. As an athlete, I've raced all around the world, but one of my most favorite races is the New York City Marathon. I've done that a number of times. And when you go to New York, it's just, it's just a rite of passage for every tourist. But also, as a local, you walk over the Brooklyn Bridge, it's, it's an iconic Bridge in New York, and everyone does it. And I was thinking, like, I can, I can wheel over the Brooklyn Bridge with friends, with family, with people I meet just while visiting New York, and you just don't think twice about it. You just do it. And I thought if I wanted to reciprocate that experience to people that I've met in New York to walk over the Sydney Harbour Bridge with me, that wasn't a possibility, or it wasn't plausible. It was just like, I just think maybe it was just off the radar as being something that was important, something that was being dignified, something that was equitable, and the moment that was raised in a in a humble and, you know, respectful conversation, everyone I spoke to completely got it and and, like I said, from from the premier to the secretary to everyone in between, worked hard to to get it done and and I was so proud when it opened.

Sam Drummond  06:09

So talk to me about universal design. How important is that in your everyday work when you're consulting with people about accessibility?

Paul Nunnari  06:18

Yeah, so when I talk about universal design. It's design that benefits everyone, and people disability are just one cohort out of many who benefit from universal design principles, and the lift today has been a really good example of that. We've as we've been chatting, there's been people coming up and down. You know, some people may have mobility considerations, but majority of these people using lift today have no accessibility requirements, but they're using it because it's good design that takes them to where they need to go in a safe, dignified and equitable way. And that's just also the way people with disability want to get from A to B as well. And traditionally, sometimes that's not the case. And you would know one of the key barriers for people with disability, among communication, attitudinal institutional barriers is also infrastructure barriers. And so to see universal design principles overlaid over this beautiful Sydney Harbour bridge landmark and make it accessible for all in a way that can be enjoyed by all in a safe way, a dignified way, is just so important and so so

Paul Nunnari  07:24

beautiful.

Sam Drummond  07:25

Well, I reckon let's go see it.

Paul Nunnari  07:28

Yeah, let's go see it. I'm really excited. Have you? Have you been up this lift before?

Sam Drummond  07:33

No, never been up the lift, never been on the

Sam Drummond  07:35

bridge, never been on the bridge. So this is the first to all of us. 

Paul Nunnari  07:50

We got one of the walk, walk on the walkway.

Sam Drummond  07:50

 Let's go. 

Paul Nunnari  07:50

Look at the look at the amount of people that's waiting to come back up. We can't get $1 for every passenger. We'd be billionaires.

Sam Drummond  07:56

So the sun's come out, and people are jogging. They're walking up. Yeah, they're in their pushes, they're in their families.

Paul Nunnari  08:06

And look at and look at that beautiful

Paul Nunnari  08:09

line of view. You've got the archway of the bridge over in front of us. You've got one of the pylons, and people walking, enjoying the pathway.

Sam Drummond  08:18

Well, can we wheel and talk? 

Paul Nunnari  08:19

Yeah, we can wheel and talk 

Paul Nunnari  08:20

Seven years ago, this was never an option for someone who might be a wheelchair user like myself, or someone with limited mobility who couldn't negotiate all those steps to get up here. So it's just beautiful.

Sam Drummond  08:35

So what do you think we can learn from elite sport in terms of creating inclusive communities?

Paul Nunnari  08:43

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think about this all the time, and I talk about this all the time as well. And you know how I mentioned before? You know, I'm a big advocate and believer around that social model of disability where it's not about fixing, curing or healing a person with disability under that medical model. And that medical model says, you know, the reason for a person with disability not participating is their disability? I don't believe in that at all. I actually believe that under that social model perspective, if we remove those barriers, like those social those communication barriers, physical barriers, attitudinal barriers and institutional barriers, then people with disability can participate and achieve just like anyone else. And so if we apply that principle to the Paralympic games for the two weeks that those athletes are competing on a global stage, we see them achieve feats that sometimes are incomprehensible or just unimaginable, but that really showcases what a person can do when you remove barriers. It really does when you remove any attitudinal barrier or infrastructure barrier and you say, I'm going to I'm going to support you, I'm going to train you, i'm going to give you every opportunity to achieve your potential, and there's going to be nothing in your way except for what's in your mind as to what you can achieve. Then you see that outcome and that and that is the Paralympics. And if we can apply that, that model to the other 340 odd days a year and see what people disability can achieve when we remove those barriers, then I know people will be blown away, and we still see some restrictions in education, in the workplace, in civic participation. And again, if we can remove more barriers, or the more barriers, we can move, particularly under the, you know, Australia's Disability Strategy and all the disability inclusion action plans that support that. Then I think, you know, I'm very excited about the future.

Sam Drummond  10:49

We've climbed the bridge, but it's been a ramp. This wouldn't have happened. We wouldn't be here. If that lift wasn't here. Can we just stop for a moment and we're looking around at the whole harbour, the Sydney we're on the Sydney Harbour Bridge. There's the Sydney Opera House in the background, and the whole city to our right.

Paul Nunnari  11:11

It's pretty beautiful, isn't it?

Sam Drummond  11:13

It's amazing, yeah. And it takes that sort of advocacy of someone sending an email or speaking up and saying, how about that lift on the bridge to be able to open this world up?

Paul Nunnari  11:28

Yeah, and I don't, I don't take, I don't take this opportunity to be up here with you for granted at all, like it's a wonderful experience.

Sam Drummond  11:37

Paul, thanks for taking us here. I would like to say I'm not envious, but I am. There's a little envy there. Should we start walking back down?

Paul Nunnari  11:47

Yeah, let's do it. 

Sam Drummond  11:48

Hi Joseph, good day. How you going welcome? What a place to

Sam Drummond  11:55

work.

Joseph Connellan  11:55

Nothing like an old institution.

Sam Drummond  11:57

I'm at the Abbotsford convent to speak with housing specialist Joseph Connellan, with over 30 years experience advising governments and shaping disability housing policy, Joseph now serves as Senior Manager in housing at the Melbourne Disability Institute. I asked him if he could recall the moment he realised that housing for people with disability would become his lifelong focus.

Joseph Connellan  12:20

I've always had this idea of doing good, but it's got to be useful good. And to me, housing, it's not very exciting, and it's hard, but boy, you get it right, and it just extends and improves people's lives in such a profound way.

Sam Drummond  12:36

We're in a city at the moment. We're at Abbotsford convent. Lovely view by the Yarra and some amazing buildings behind us that I imagine, housed nuns at some stage, but a lot of these buildings at some stage have housed people who might not otherwise have a home, and many of them have disabilities that seems to have been shifting out from the inner city, where people had their homes, outwards towards the suburbs and the outer suburbs and beyond, is, how do we keep people within their communities when we're thinking about housing.

Joseph Connellan  13:22

Well, housing is not complicated, it's hard and it's expensive. So what's happening in disability or housing people disability, we are being pushed right out. And the most extreme examples you can see of that is in the specialist disability accommodation program. And while we haven't seen, we've seen the new stuff being built on the fringe, but what we haven't seen is the middle and inner suburbs will just get gutted as people sell up and move out. So to stop that, you actually have to buy and secure the property. You've got to own the houses in the middle and inner suburbs. So that requires money and resources. So some of the things we're doing at the minute actually drive that. So not only we bring in private investors who are chasing returns on the margin, which pushes out, we're also talking about policies that would strip out the ownership or force the not for profits, to sell up their inner cities and middle bring suburbs to go out. It is more efficient to house somebody here in the inner city who require support than it is to do it in Melton, simply because of labor and access of workers and people to community and all those things you need to do. It's just this false economy, because we separate off the whole equation. We separate housing off from the whole equation.

Sam Drummond  14:36

So when you talk about, you know, Kew cottage, and I think a lot of people, when they think disability and housing, think of that old model of big, you know, big accommodation for lots of people, whether it's not so much freedom, and assume we've come a long way from them, but some of the things you're saying make me think that we haven't come far at all. What are the biggest barriers?

Joseph Connellan  15:05

There's this whole debate going on around group homes. I'm not a fan, but I got to say this thinking about, I think there's a confusion between the built form and the service model. People like Christine Bigby's Work at Latrobe is really interesting, because what that talks about is, if we look about the at the outcomes, not that, not the physical form of the accommodation, you get quite different results. So I think we need to really be focused on how we think about housing, and come to some consensus about what housing we need and where we need it, then build it and understand it will cost us money for housing, but ultimately, will save us money in the long term. It also gives better life outcomes. 

Sam Drummond  15:43

When you're talking about things that will cost money, what sort of features are costing money?

Joseph Connellan  15:50

The first one is the most obvious

Joseph Connellan  15:51

one its accessible design, but that's that's a small bit, that's a small component. Second one is affordability, so whether they can afford to buy or rent there. Third one is around the support provision. So the NDIS, for example, focuses on the three, three to one support provision. So you've got to have that factored in. Fourth one is around the management of the housing itself. It's got to be robust. And the fifth one is around, sort of relate to the location. So you've got to figure out which barriers that person with a disability is confronting. So if you have a very well off person that needs an accessible housing well, you solve the accessible housing problem by spending their money. You know that's the solution. There's no sort of this idea. There is a form of housing for disability that's universal. It's just a bit strange.

Sam Drummond  16:39

Is there a way that you can shape the housing model to support inclusive communities. So a person is is not stuck in a home, it is going out and working or volunteering or going to local sports game. How does housing support that inclusive community.

Joseph Connellan  17:02

I would talk about housing as facilitating, providing the opportunity for rather than doing so. There's sort of a subtle difference. So I think location is the first thing. And then you you get into the management, not so much the housing. The housing management tends to be out of people's lives if it's working well. So it then comes down to what the support mechanisms, both formal and informal and  how that works. And once again, coming back to Dr Bigby's work, this idea that you set goals around about participation and integration, she uses measures. And I'm great believers, if you measure something, you actually care about it, we don't tend to measure this sort of stuff, and she does. So I think we should have a measure. We should have an objective, that should be something we do. 

Sam Drummond  17:45

But how do we measure that? 

Joseph Connellan  17:47

She does it through observation. So her it's really interesting. She she looks at people in group homes, and says, how much of the time are they participating in interacting with other people, which are really simple measure and then, and then shows how that changes with different service models, but also then contrasted with people who don't live in the group homes, and that's a bit horrifying. Like the numbers are terrible, like people might only be interacting for five or 10% of the time, or you and I might be interacting 60 70% of the time.

Sam Drummond  18:26

So if there are those benefits to group homes, do you see a way to translate those benefits to people living individually or with their families?

Joseph Connellan  18:35

The methodology is not around group homes. It's about that's the group they're studying, but it's the same methodology. So my point is, you should be using the same methodology with everybody else. You know, what's the measure? And I'm not saying you measure everybody's interaction, but you could have a measure of what they are doing as a social interaction. So how often are they going out, how often are they meeting people informally? How often are they meeting people who are not their paid carers, that sort of thing. And that's possible. And then have programs framed, or exercises framed to increase that. 

Sam Drummond  19:03

If we're looking at

Sam Drummond  19:04

a national housing strategy and making it as accessible as possible, and we're looking 10 years or even 30 years in the future, how do we get there, and how do we get to a fully accessible housing system?

Joseph Connellan  19:17

Well, I think the first thing you'd want to do is set up some targets around housing people. You know, I segment the world into those that need the specialist accommodation, those that might need the specialist accommodation, but not SDA, social housing, private rental, home ownership, and each of those have separate pathways. And I think what you've got to do is look at people with disabilities in their different cohorts. So it might be people with physical disability. How are they going accessing home ownership programs, for example, and if they're not doing as well as the rest of the community, then what are the barriers? How do we address them? 

Sam Drummond  19:50

How do

Sam Drummond  19:51

we get better at recognising that the real life impact that policies have, and telling those stories and making sure those stories are connected to those policies and strategies.

Joseph Connellan  20:05

People in communities understand housing and they want to do stuff. What's lacking is the mechanisms to draw that together at a local level. So I did some work piloting a methodology on how to do this, taking it out to a country town in central Victoria, and it can work, but it needs resources to go out there and facilitate these communities. And this is the idea of not just having a conversation in the community around a bunch of support providers or people with disabilities or their carers. This is about the whole community. This is about the Rotary Club, the Lions Club, the council getting together and saying, in our community, there are people who are on in this case, the NDIS who need better housing. What can we do as a community? There's all sorts of things they can do, but they don't know. So to me, that says there's a systems problem about how we facilitate and resource those conversations. At the minute, it's nobody's business, and I think that's that's terrible.

Sam Drummond  20:57

There is more private housing going up in these parts and that they are going up for a lot of people, that's really hard to and from an accessibility point. A lot of us can't go up that set of stairs or get into that bath or the bathroom that is not quite big enough. How do we make sure that when we're expanding our houses up and maybe being bit more cramped, that it's still suitable for people with disability?

Joseph Connellan  21:31

I think in some ways, high rise can improve accessibility, particularly with lifts, so you can actually begin to get up and of course, physical design is only one of the barriers. Maybe affordability might be the other thing. So it depends on how they are configured. And I think this is about having a vision about what housing

Joseph Connellan  21:49

is needed 

Sam Drummond  21:49

Well Joseph Connell, thanks for joining me.

Joseph Connellan  21:52

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

Sam Drummond  21:57

I'm in Taylors Lakes in Melbourne's northern suburbs to meet Nic and his mother, Joan Gains. Nick, a wheelchair user whose disability affects his speech, lives with two friends in a supported, fully accessible home funded through the NDIS. His house was designed to empower independence and community connection.

Sam Drummond  22:19

Hi, I'm Sam. 

Joan Gains  22:19

Hello, Sam, come on in.

Nic Gains  22:22

Sam, welcome. 

Sam Drummond  22:23

Thank you. It's it's quite hot out there, but nice and cool in here already. There's you in a hard hat and a fluoro vest. Looks like you're on a building site. Were you building this house? 

Nic Gains  22:37

Yeah

Joan Gains  22:39

You remember when we were building it? Do you remember what we were doing when we were building it? What did you and the boys do, when

Nic Gains  22:55

More

Joan Gains  22:56

I remember the things that you used to ask? You asked for cupboards so that you can have lots of your things, lots of storage. And did you want a television in the lounge room, or did you want one in your bedroom?

Nic Gains  23:15

Bedroom

Joan Gains  23:16

You wanted a TV in your bedroom and you wanted a place for your music.

Sam Drummond  23:25

We toured Nic's home where they showed me firsthand how thoughtfully designed and accessible the space is for Nic's needs.

Joan Gains  23:32

Nicholas asked for this little alcove here because he has one at home, so that all these things were close to him. Yeah, and especially, and we reminded the architect to put all of the taps and the shelves on the right, on the side that they'll be standing to help Nicholas, yeah, and because originally they'd arranged them for that side where the worker would get completely wet.

Sam Drummond  23:57

So it's just little things like that architect might not think of

Joan Gains  24:02

so if you need the staff to come, what do you do? 

Nic Gains  24:06

Push the doorbell. 

Joan Gains  24:10

Yeah, here's the doorbell.

Sam Drummond  24:16

They're gonna come now, aren't they? What are we gonna tell them to do? 

Nic Gains  24:22

Help

Sam Drummond  24:23

Who who came up with the idea that you could live together?

Nic Gains  24:27

My idea 

Sam Drummond  24:28

And Joan, have you noticed anything about the difference in Nic's independence since moving here?

Joan Gains  24:36

Oh, absolutely. He's he's made so many friends, and he knows people throughout his community. The three boys have had a lot to do with this area. So to be able to get a house in this area has just been brilliant. Boys that that we the workers that we had working. We had a few workers working with us in the house before he came here. And they all came to the house as well, along with the the other two boys working.

Nic Gains  25:04

Matt

Joan Gains  25:04

 So, yes, Matt came, didn't he? He worked at our house, and then he came here, and so did Georgia. And that sort of helped them settle so much more that they've got the familiar people and know, the things that they like. So many of Nicholas's friends have been telling me about being offered houses with people that they don't know, or whereas these boys were look really looking forward to coming to share the house together, and that experience of watching it being built and talking about it and meeting with the architects to say what they want in it, to talk about it for that year before they moved in was fabulous. A lot of the when we when the mums all talked when they first moved in, we thought we'd grade them in a little bit, and they came and stayed the first night and told us that they didn't want to come home again. They loved it here.

Sam Drummond  25:57

And as a parent, what does it mean for you to see Nic in such a secure environment?

Joan Gains  26:05

I was so worried that what would happen when I couldn't look after Nicholas anymore, and this was just a really big goal for me, not not necessarily for me, because Nicholas could stay home living with me forever, and I would love that, but that wasn't the right thing for Nicholas. Nicholas to have his own independence and to know that he's got an extended family, extended family, friends, workers, that's less dependent on my ability to care for him, and it's a very small world being looked after by your mother. So now we think one of the best things is I get to be his mum. I get to visit I get to take him out places. We have lunch together, dinner together. He visits me. But I don't actually have to do all of the the personal care and be the carer as well as the mum.

Sam Drummond  27:01

Thank you for showing us around.

Joan Gains  27:03

No worries. It's been a pleasure to have you come and have a look. We're very proud of the house, and we love showing it off, and the boys love showing it off too. 

Sam Drummond  27:11

I'm Sam.

Leeanne Caton  27:11

I'm Leeanne Caton. Pleased to meet you, and welcome to Aboriginal Housing NT. Thank you very much. 

Sam Drummond  27:18

Can I have a seat?

Leeanne Caton  27:19

 Have a seat, please do

Sam Drummond  27:23

I'm in Darwin speaking with Leeanne Caton, the CEO of Aboriginal Housing. NT, the leading Aboriginal controlled housing organisation in the Northern Territory, a proud kalkadoon wan yi woman, Leanne brings over 40 years of experience across government and community sectors championing culturally safe, inclusive and sustainable housing for Aboriginal communities. Leeanne, you've worked around Australia and particularly the top end. Why housing? Why is it housing important?

Leeanne Caton  27:56

Because success in life starts with a home. Basically it everything else follows. I mean, health and education will always argue that their genre is more important than each other, but you can't even go to school or have a healthy life unless you've got a home.

Sam Drummond  28:11

Can you explain to me the gap in access to affordable and safe and culturally appropriate housing for First Nations people?

Leeanne Caton  28:21

Well, for example, the public housing wait list in Darwin, in the Northern Territory, is 10 years plus. So it's a very, very long time. Aboriginal people live in remote communities. They have different circumstances. They have a housing reference group. So when a house becomes available, the local housing reference group made up of community members will determine who gets that house, from the community's perspective, but it is a very, very long wait list. Hence the overcrowding situation where we have 12 times the national percentage for homelessness, and that's from a Western I suppose perspective that stat comes from doesn't take into account the severe overcrowding that happens in Aboriginal houses due to people not being able to get homes.

Sam Drummond  29:05

Decision makers see disability from a very western perspective. What would a First Nations perspective on disability be?

Leeanne Caton  29:15

Well, of course, there's a difference between, as we all know, physical disability, one that is visually obvious, and then there's the ones that aren't physical. It's the mental health problems and associated things like that. You know, the disabilities that are not so obvious to people as I don't know if you're aware, but our remote communities, hardly of them have bitumised roads. There is absolutely, there is certainly no bitumised driveways. So if you're a person with a physical disability and you require a wheelchair or a mobility device, you need a four wheel drive version, because you need to be able to get from your car into your house under four wheel drive circumstances, basically, and unfortunately, a lot of the houses have been built in the past not do not have disability access. As I said before. You know, most standard doors are 82 centimeters. That's not going to fit a wheelchair into it, and they may have railings, and you know, the hand, the hand assisted railings to help people get in and out of showers and, you know, off the loo and things like that, but basically that's where it stops

Sam Drummond  30:23

For a person living in a remote community with a disability. What does it mean if housing is not accessible?

Leeanne Caton  30:31

What it means is that they need to we need to call the health department. They need to come out and do an assessment of what the House requires, and then that house has got to be upgraded to be conducive to somebody who's got mobility issues, etc. Now that is a long process dealing with the public sector or the bureaucracy. As you can imagine, somebody's come from a regional base out to a remote community, even further, if it's a homelands or an out station, and do the assessment, go back into their regional center, submit the paperwork. Could take a couple of months to get that stuff sorted out. I mean, it's very time consuming within an urban environment, let alone a remote community or a homelands. So these are the things that we're dealing with, and there's just such a lack of services, long wait times. And yeah, like I said, the housing wait, this is 10 years. So you know who thinks that I'm going to need a house in 10 years time, so I better sign up now. And the other thing in all of that is that if you go onto that waiting list, you need to be under a certain income level, require require certain services, and then you need to maintain that income level for the duration of the wait list. So it's actually keeping people in poverty also because you need to stay unemployed and you need to stay under a certain income level in order to be able to be considered for that house in 10 years time. So it does the whole process basically keeps people in poverty.

Sam Drummond  31:57

How would we go about cutting through that bureaucracy then and making sure that people get housing that's accessible, affordable, culturally safe when they need it.

Leeanne Caton  32:11

Okay? We have an agreement, a federally funded agreement, National Partnership Agreement, in the Northern Territory at the moment where we the agreement is two tiers of government, Commonwealth and NT, government, plus an Aboriginal caucus that consists of four land councils plus Aboriginal Housing NT, which I'm the CEO of, and we have $4 billion build over 10 years according to nearly 3000 houses just continue. And there are seven working groups that go with that. So there is building design and there's land tenure and etc, etc, we are constantly reminding the building design working group that we're talking about traditionally orientated people, and we need to be mindful of the of the cultural customs and obligations that people need to live under. For example, as I mentioned before, it's pretty simple to put an ablution block on the end of it, on the end of a house, so that males can use one and females can use another. It gets more complicated then when you've got to actually have disability access to those two ablution blocks. So it's not rocket science, but unless you've actually have lived experience or you're affected by that kind of stuff, you don't, you don't get it how hard it can make somebody's lives not to be able to roll a wheelchair into a house and into a bathroom or toilet and use those facilities.

Sam Drummond  33:32

So is that the biggest mistake you've seen when it comes to First Nations housing, in particular, particularly accessible housing for people with disabilities? Are there mistakes that keep happening that we can learn from?

Sam Drummond  33:43

Leanne, thanks for having me. 

Leeanne Caton  33:43

Thank you.

Leeanne Caton  33:43

Absolutely, as I said, access. You know, the gaps not closed, and Aboriginal people have a low life expectancy rate full of chronic diseases. You know, rheumatic fever is still rampant in the Northern Territory where I believe it's, you know, eradicated in most countries of the world now comes from overcrowding. So there is still they keep doing you keep doing the same things, you're going to get the same result. Lot of Aboriginal people have chronic diseases. Have diabetes. We've got Mercado Joseph's disease, which is very common for the East Arnhem Land and the Groote Island Areas, where it really affects your mobility. And people pass, and there is not access, appropriate access for people who have those sicknesses to access the building. And in first instance, we are challenging the system for appropriate housing for Aboriginal people, culturally appropriate, but disability access also needs to be taken into consideration. 

Sam Drummond  34:11

You've been listening to the Building Inclusion episode on Inclusive Homes and Communities. I'll never forget taking in the sights from Sydney Harbour Bridge with Paul Nunnari and visiting Nic and his mum Joan in Taylor's Lakes. Moments that really highlight how crucial it is to have accessible, inclusive housing and infrastructure in order to build strong communities. This has been Building Inclusion - Australia's Disability Strategy podcast, hosted by me Sam Drummond, presented by Powerd Media, produced by Eliza Hull, recorded by Ascent Media. Thanks for listening.