Access tech and your dog guide

00:11S1

On Vision Australia radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye dog show with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'm going to be joined by Damian McMorrow, national Access Technology manager at Vision Australia. Damo is a singer dog handler himself, and we're going to be talking about how to use access technology to get the best out of your singer dog. We're going to be talking a little bit about some of the other products and navigational tools that can be used whilst working with a dog guide to keep you safe, oriented and independent. And now let's jump into some technology talk with demo. Hi, Jamie, thanks for joining me on the show today.

00:56S2

Thank you for having me.

00:57S1

So we're going to start off, um, and talk a little bit about some assistive technology today. But I wanted to start off, um, if you can introduce yourself and your role at Vision Australia.

01:07S2

Yeah, sure. So, uh, Damon McMorrow, I'm the national access technology manager at Vision Australia. So I head up, I guess, all aspects of our Access Technology service. So that includes our, um, providing support to our 80 specialists out in the field, of which there's a over 40 of them in, uh, various offices around the country. Uh, we also have a, an access technology helpdesk, which people can call if they want, just general help and advice over the phone or via email. And then we also have some, uh, access technology lead consultants who, uh, do sort of, uh, at consulting work for corporate and government clients and that type of thing. 

So it's a fairly big service, I guess. And, I've been I've been part of it. I started out as an IT specialist in the Brisbane office in corporate. So I've been with Vision Australia for around about ten years, and, uh, I'm also, um, totally blind from birth. And I have... currently working with my third seeing eye dog, whose name is Ebony. She's a nine year old, uh, yellow lab. So, uh, yeah, been sort of, I guess, around the organisation for quite a while. And being a seeing eye dog user since, around about 2004.

02:31S1

And so not only are you aware of this kind of professionally, but I'm assuming that means also that you've been using a lot of this assistive access technology for a long time, too.

02:40S2

Yes. Yeah. It's something that I guess, you know, I first started messing about with it when I was about seven, so, you know, 40 odd years ago. And I've always had a real interest in it generally and what it can do for us in terms of, you know, independence, employment study, and of course, navigation and mobility and all of those sorts of things. So it's something that I'm fairly passionate about, which is sort of while working in the industry that I do.

03:12S1

I can imagine that, uh, 40 years ago, the capacity and the ability, um, you know, just the limitations of this assistive technology would have been quite different to.

03:22S2

Oh, very much so. You know, we didn't really have refresher braille devices. We didn't have GPS devices, uh, a computer with a very basic screen reader with horrible robotic speech was about as good as it got, at that time and.

03:36S1

Probably would have cost a lot more.

03:39S2

Relatively speaking, yes. But I mean, over that time, we've seen some massive changes, you know, and we've, we've got, in lots of ways, better access to information than we've ever had before. And that that brings with it some additional challenges. In as much as, you know, in the environment we start, we're starting to see things like touch screen operated lifts and things, which can be a little bit of a challenge. But overall, the access that we have and the independence that we have as a result of technology is very much improved over where it was even 10 or 15 years ago.

04:14S1

So what is the kind of definition of access technology? What does that mean and how do access technology specialists help?

04:21S2

So really there's sort of been a little bit of a change probably in the last 10 to 15 years. So previously, uh, we used to use the term assistive technology or adaptive technology because generally it was specialized equipment and software and that sort of thing. So nothing really was accessible out of the box. What we've seen, though, in in more recent years is that, you know, things like Apple phones have a screen reader built into them. Windows computers have a sort of a basic screen reader built into them, Android phones. So there's a whole mix now of sort of mainstream devices that have some accessibility built in, as well as those sort of specialised or purpose built devices, you know, so things like talking GPS, you know, magnifiers, all of those kinds of things. 

So that's why we sort of use the term access technology now, because it's a mixture of taking advantage of the inbuilt accessibility that exists in a lot of devices, as well as the,  sort of purpose built devices and software that that are on the market as well. So what our Access Technology Specialists do is they work with you to sort of work out, you know, what is the right or what is the best fit for your particular situation, because everybody's different. Everybody has different needs. Everybody has different life goals and things that they want to do, things that are important to them. Everyone's vision impairments sort of affects them differently. You know, you can have two people with the same vision condition who have very different needs and very different wants when it comes to technology. 

So what we try to do is to help sort of navigate the maze of all of the different options, first of all, to work out what options are actually going to be suitable for your specific situation, but then also trying to navigate the the funding landscape as well. So depending on where people are at in life, what they have access to, whether it's, you know, NDIS funding, whether it's you know, KSP or Commonwealth Home Support program, home care package, job access, you know, for the sort of workplace modifications side of things if you need, you know, equipment for work. So there's a number of different ways that equipment can be funded. 

So what we try to do is to find the right options and sort of show you what all the options are. We're not we don't tell you what you can have or what the the right option is. It's a matter of showing you the different pros and cons and working with you to identify what's going to work best in your situation, and then helping to navigate the the relevant funding to help you secure the equipment and the software and the training that you need. Because the training is just as important in terms of actually getting the most out of the equipment that you have or the equipment that you need.

07:07S1

It's a little bit like training with a dog. It's not just dog. Here you go. Take that's where I go.

07:13S2

That's right. Yeah. To get the most out of it. It's, you know, it's always useful to have some training and, and I, I also tend to think, I mean, I've been in this industry for 40 years, and I have never stopped learning. There's always something new every day that I come across. And I think I didn't know that. So even if you're a fairly experienced technology user, sometimes it can be helpful. You know, you can always pick up, you know, some tips and tricks and some different ideas and perhaps more efficient ways of doing things and that sort of thing. So, you know, we can provide training for sort of beginner level right through to sort of more advanced, depending on what you need and what you're trying to do.

07:51S1

So on the kind of, I guess bringing the Senado element to it. So. Obviously there's kind of that technology that's for your computer or your home. And then how can you how can you use technology or what type of access technology aids might someone with a dog guide use?

08:11S2

There's probably a few different categories of, of of technology that you might use as a, as a handler. So at the sort of most basic level, there are what I like to call haptic devices. So they provide, um, feedback in the form of a vibration when you're approaching obstacles. So there are devices like the mini guide, which is a little handheld device, and you can sort of pan that around and the sensor will pick up if there's an obstacle in front of you. It uses very similar technology to what you, you know, the reverse parking sensors that are used in cars where they beep as you get closer to, uh, an object rather than an audible beep. It's a vibration. And you can sort of set different ranges depending on, you know, how much warning you want, whether you're indoors or outdoors. 

And those things can be used in a number of different ways. You know, I use one sometimes for picking up, uh, things like a, a roadside bin after toileting, my dog, for identifying, you know, shorelines along a building and identifying doorways and gaps and things like that. There's also some other devices that have, uh. You know, that functionality built into, for example, along Kane? Um, we have in the past seen some wearable type devices that, uh, that also include that functionality. So that's sort of one and a fairly basic, you know, device that's relatively low tech but still quite, quite helpful. 

Then we go into sort of G.P.S. navigation type options, and there's a couple of different, uh, you know, forms of that. So there are some standalone GPS devices. So I'm thinking of things like the Victoria track and the Stella track. So they, um, are a standalone handheld device with tactile buttons that can provide sort of turn by turn directions when you're trying to get from A to B. Um, they do a little more than that, though, in that they also give you a description of the environment. So they'll tell you what type of intersection you're approaching for example, uh, you can record a travel route. So if you need, you know, you want to go from home to your local shop, but the safest way to do that is not necessarily the most efficient way. From a mapping point of view. You can walk that travel route with someone once, and then you can record that and play it back in sort of forward or reverse direction. 

They have the ability to browse the map, so you can sort of have a look at things before you set out so that, you know, that you're whether you're dealing with conventional 3 or 4 way intersections or whether you're dealing with the five exits roundabout, whether you're dealing with major highways or just sort of side streets. So you can look at your travel around and the in the case of the stellar track, it actually has a camera as well, which can be used for reading signage and, you know, the numbers on shop fronts and those kinds of things and that.

11:26S1

Like, does that automatically kind of read out and detect it, or is it something like, um, you know, like an IRA type thing that connects to.

11:35S2

So it's GPS based, but there are different modes. So you can sort of have it in an Explore mode where it tells just tells you what streets you're passing, or you can use the camera application. So there's sort of a quick reading mode. There's an address confirmation mode that does things like door detection and stuff like that. So you, you know, you do have to drive it a little bit in terms of pressing buttons. The nice thing about those sorts of devices is that. They are very tactile, so you can have them clipped to your belt and just press the button that you want, you know. Whereas, you know, there are a number of sort of, for example, phone based navigation solutions, but they tend to require, you know, particularly in the case of the iPhone, a reasonable amount of kind of swiping around the screen to find the thing you want. And sometimes that's not always as efficient. 

But, you know, on the on the flip side of that, if you, you know, if you've already got an iPhone, you're not carrying extra hardware, charging extra hardware, you have the technology sort of there in your pocket anyway. And some of the iPhone models, like the Pro models, can also do things like door detection, and they can read signage on doors and those sorts of things. So, you know, that's that's also an option. And, you know, it can often sort of give you the information you need without you necessarily having to purchase additional equipment. The other challenge, of course, though, is that funding bodies like the NDIS tend to be reluctant to fund things like iPhones because they class them as everyday items, whereas some of your more purpose built devices, they're they're more willing to fund. 

So there are sort of pros and cons and it depends on your viewpoint and your needs and all of those sorts of things as to what you what you use. I mean, I personally use a stellar track because I find that works really well for me in the situations that I'm in. But I know plenty of people who say, no, I only want to carry one device. I'll use an iPhone. The other type of device that we've got is, sort of phone apps that can provide. Visual interpretation. And that can take a couple of forms too. So here are services like Bemis or IRA where you're connected via the camera in your phone to a human who can sort of interpret whatever the camera can see and they can give you directions. They can, you know, ask you to pan the phone around and, you know, read signage for you and that kind of thing. If you were looking for a cafe or you were looking for a seat or something like that. 

But also now increasingly we're sort of starting to see some apps that use artificial intelligence or AI. So, uh, Be My Eyes, for example, has an AI service now called BMI AI where you can snap a picture and it will try and interpret the, the picture for you, and you can ask it questions. So, for example, if you were to take a picture of a menu in a cafe, you could then sort of say, what's the cheapest thing on the menu? Do they have any fries on the menu? What are the gluten free options? You know, those sorts of things. So you can, you know, it's a lot more interactive than just taking the picture and having the contents read to you in its entirety. 

We're also starting to see some of that technology cross over into wearable devices. So there are things like the Orcam, which can be used as a wearable reading aid. There are devices like the envision glasses, which are a sort of a wearable, a pair of glasses that can do some of that sort of eye type thing that they can also describe pictures and scan text and those kinds of things. So, uh, that's sort of I guess the fourth type of device is that wearable solution. And you can also have the things like the Invision glasses can connect to the Iris service, so you can use it as a standalone device, or you can use it with a sort of a visual interpretation service like IRA, where the, you know, the the agent is actually looking essentially at whatever, whatever the camera in your glasses can see. 

So there's a whole range of different technologies that you can use. We tend to call them secondary aids. So obviously your dog guide or if you're a long cane user, your long cane is your primary primary mobility aide and is used for detecting steps and finding objects and sort of getting you safely from A to B. Um, these other devices are more used to sort of give you additional information about your environment and to provide some additional prompts. So, you know, I find that, for example, if I'm in an unfamiliar environment, using something like my Stella Trek enables me to give Eboni better directions because I know what's around and when to sort of tell her to turn and that kind of thing. 

So for me, you know, using a dog guide in combination with some of these devices, you know, makes for a much smoother experience and probably a better experience for Ebony as well, because I'm a little surer about what's around me and where I'm where I'm wanting to go.

16:48S1

Because, I mean, my my kind of understanding is that, you know, a scenario, although some will occur or dog I will essentially, like someone will potentially kind of guide to a location if they've done it lots and lots of times, but it's not a given. So and that's the kind of is that how the technology kind of works in conjunction with the dog is that these things provide that, you know, I guess orientation information as well.

17:11S2

Yes. So let me give you an example. I know the local area around our corporate office fairly well, you know, so I know, uh, and so does Ebony. So I know a couple of the local cafes, I know the local pie shop, I know the pharmacist, um, you know, that, that sort of thing. But I had a situation one day where I had to go and get a shoulder X-ray. I'd done myself an injury in the gym and needed to get an X-ray done. And I wasn't exactly sure where the x-ray clinic was. I sort of knew within a block where it was. So we were able to navigate the usual sort of street crossings. Ebony's familiar with those, and some I... but the using the sort of the GPS component of the stellar track I was able to get to within, you know, maybe ten meters of the, of the x-ray clinic. 

But then I used the camera application to actually identify the door. And it was one of the it was a bit of an unusual one because it was sort of set back from the, the road. So I sort of had to go through down an alleyway and up a ramp and round a couple of corners where, you know, inside the building to actually find it. So being able to read the door signage and that sort of thing actually meant that I was able to get much closer than I would have, you know, just using the GPS component. And, you know, I could have probably said to Ebony, Find the door, but there were a number of doors and options to choose from there. So there would have been more trial and error, so we would have got there. But it was probably an easier exercise given that I wasn't familiar with the exact sort of location. It was a lot easier to sort of use, to work Ebony, but also use the technology in conjunction with, you know, her guiding skills and so on.

18:59S1

Yeah, especially because like I said, if if there's kind of a ramp to get to the door and it's behind this and then that, and then there's a few other doors and a single dog is like obviously quite smart. But to actually find which is the right specific door that you need that happens to have writing on which a dog can't understand that, it's a bit of an ask.

19:17S2

It is, it is. And so I think that sometimes it, you know, having access to the technology just gives you a little bit more certainty about what's happening. It means you're potentially less frustrated, you're providing more coherent directions to your dog because you you've got some of those additional cues. You know, the other thing for me is that I travel all around the country for my for my role. So, you know, I might be in Hobart one week, in Darwin the next. You know, and in a situation like that where you're traveling on your own independently with your dog and you're trying to find food, you're trying to find a toileting spot, you know, those sorts of things. 

The technology really helps as well, because then once you've found those things, once you can mark that, you can then find your way back and make sure you're letting yourself into the right hotel room and all of those things. So, you know, for the sort of things that I do and the amount of, um, unfamiliar environments that I seem to find myself in, um, you know, I definitely find that access to the technology in conjunction with Ebony is, is a really good, uh, combination and probably gives me the confidence to do things that I might otherwise hesitate to do.

20:27S1

Without kind of without either. It would be, like, harder for you. Oh, absolutely. Yes.

20:32S2

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I wouldn't, I wouldn't want I certainly you know, and I think it's important to stress that, that the technology is not a replacement, uh, for your, for your dog guide. You know, I sometimes as a tech person, people often ask me, do you think we'll ever get to the point where we'll have, you know, robots or other technology which will would negate the need for a dog guide? And I sort of have my my response to that is always that. I really hope not. 

Because, you know, you can't go past the connection that you have with another living being. Um, you know, I guess, I guess, you know, a piece of technology is just a tool, whereas a dog provides, uh, a whole 'nother level of interaction and that kind of thing. So I, I think that the two in combination works really well, but I absolutely wouldn't want to be without either, uh, my seeing eye dog or the technology, given the stuff that I'm doing, and I hope that we don't get to a point where the technology completely replaces the bond that we have with our dogs.

21:39S1

Yeah. I mean, as much as it's kind of, you know, you can say, hey, Siri, it's really not the same as the kind of like tail wag and the feeling of a dog. 

21:48S2

That's right, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, we... my wife is blind as well, and is also a seeing eye dog user. And you know, we're quite keen caravanners. So we go camping and, you know, using again using our dogs together with our iPhones and our, uh, G.P.S. devices and things like that means that we can navigate in all sorts of different situations that we might not otherwise. So, yeah, for me, it's a really good combination.

22:19S1

So I think one of the things that I should think about with all of those technology, if you are totally blind so you're not kind of relying on magnification, you're probably primarily getting that information through hearing or a headset. Is that correct?

22:33S2

Yes, generally.

22:34S1

So. What kind of devices do you use that are kind of quite safe in public so that you can continue to, I guess, be be aware of the environment and to listen out for things like cars whilst still getting that information.

22:49S2

Yeah, that's a good question. And there are a couple of different ways of getting around that. So there are the sort of, bone conduction type headphones. So the idea of those is that the earpieces, rather than actually sitting in or over your ears, rest on your cheekbones, and the sound is conducted through the bones of your skull. So it means that your ears are completely uncovered. You can still listen for traffic and that kind of thing, but you can also still hear the feedback from what, you know, your phone or your G.P.S. device or whatever it is that you're using. The other option, some of the earbuds now. So things like the Apple AirPods Pro do have a what they call the transparency mode, where you're able to listen to what's sort of happening around you. So you're essentially turning the noise cancelling off. 

Personally, I prefer the bone conduction type headphones, and the reason for that is that I use echo-location quite extensively. So that's where you, you make a sharp click sort of a and you get an echo back from objects and things in the environment. And you can therefore identify where doorways are and where walls and fences and trees and parked cars and those kinds of things. So I find that if I'm using the in-ear type earbuds, even in sort of transparency mode, they it reduces my ability to echolocate. And I've kind of find that a little bit frustrating. So personally, I really like the bone conduction type headphones. But, you know, there are I know some people who are using the sort of noise cancelling earbuds with awareness mode or transparency mode to really good effect. 

So, you know, they're... it's sort of a case of horses for courses and people have, you know, particular preferences. The bone conduction ones were actually originally designed for runners. So that if you're out for a jog, you know, you can still potentially have your music on. But here the traffic and the environmental sounds around you, they're probably not as high fidelity. You know, if you if you really want a high fidelity listening experience, they're probably not quite the right piece of technology for that, but for being able to navigate around your environment and still hear what's going on. I... they probably that they would be my, my personal preference. 

But, you know, there's... it's horses for courses and you know, everybody has their preference. So I would sort of encourage people to experiment and do your research. Think about what what you need. You know, what the sort of primary use case for the the device is and then and then choose accordingly. But they're sort of two options that I'm aware of and that I know a lot of people use.

25:34S1

Are there any other kind of tips or suggestions that you'd give to other dog handlers and or I guess, how can someone seek more information or assistance from the A-Team?

25:44S2

Yeah, sure. So, you know, there there are a lot of different options out there. As I've said, you know, there are phone based solutions, there are free apps, there are paid apps, there are, you know, standalone devices. So, you know, it's always worth sort of having a little bit of a chat, probably with one of our IT specialists, just to understand what those options are and what they look like. And, you know, so that can be done either by contacting your local regional Australia office or by calling our contact center on 1308 474 6 or 1300-vision. If you're, you know, not already a Vision Australia seeing or seeing eye dogs client. And they can sort of walk you through the process and put you in touch with your, your local office. 

There is also, as I mentioned at the start, the Access Technology Helpdesk, which you can reach in the same way, you can call the 1300 number and just ask to be put through to the IT helpdesk. Or you can email ATC help. That's ATC, A for Apple, T for Thomas C for Charlie help at visionaustralia-dot-org... and, you know, they can sort of answer any general questions you might have about different types of devices and what their pros and cons are and that kind of thing. But really, for a lot of this stuff, I would say it's worth actually having a hands-on trial, having a look at what's out there to see what will actually work for you. But if you just need some some help with general troubleshooting or general advice, then you could always start with the IT helpdesk. And all of the staff on the helpdesk team are either blind or low vision themselves. So they all use this stuff day in, day out in their daily lives and their professional lives and that kind of thing.

27:33S1

They're not going to recommend anything that they wouldn't use themselves.

27:36S3

That's that's.

27:37S2

Absolutely right. Yes. Yeah. So, you know, and they, they do understand the, I suppose the frustrations too, of our helpdesk team, our dog guide users as well. You know, so they would have a sort of a good awareness of what technologies work well when you're working your dog. So yeah, they're more than happy to, more than happy to to assist you.

28:00S1

Right. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show, Damo. It's been really interesting. It's not something that we've had much talk on. Lots of options out there.

28:07S2

Definitely, definitely. And look, thanks for thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate the opportunity and I hope that it's been of some help or some benefit to your listeners.

28:22S1

You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Damo, National Access technology manager at Vision Australia. If you'd like to find out more about seeing either the work we do or how you can help, or if you'd like to find out about becoming a handle with seeing if you are blind or have low vision, head to our website at visionaustralia-dot-org. If you'd like to get some help with your access technology from Vision Australia, you can email the help desk at Act Help at Vision Australia.org or you can ring the A-T helpdesk at 1-300-vision, which is 1300 847 466. Thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show. Don't forget to tune in! Same time next week for another episode of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio.