00:11 S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'm joined by Damien McMorrow, who is a seeing eye dogs handler and Vision Australia's National Access Technology Manager. Damien joined me just after he started working with Jana, so we're going to have a bit of an update on how they are travelling together and some of the interesting things about life of a seeing eye dogs handler. Then we're going to talk about some things access technology, including some of the access technology that Damo uses.
This is only part one of the segment on access technology. So the other part of that will be aired next week as well. So don't forget to tune in as well next week. So without further ado, here is part one of my interview with Damo. Hi Damien, thanks for joining me on the show today.
01:06 S2
Thank you for having me.
01:08 S1
It's great to have you back. Could you please start off by introducing yourself?
01:11 S2
Yeah, sure. I'm Damien McMorrow, so I'm the national access technology manager at Vision Australia. Been with Vision Australia coming up to 11 years. And... I am also a seeing eye dog handler and currently working with my fourth seeing eye dog, whose name is Jenna.
01:32 S1
I think we briefly spoke at the very start of... your partnership with Jenna. How is it going and how long have you been working together now?
01:41 S2
So got Jenna in February last year. So just just coming up on a year. My previous seeing eye dog, Ebony... had worked pretty much full term, so for eight years. So that was a long and successful partnership. And... I think with any dog, the, you know, the transition takes time and it's very different. It feels very different. I think probably your confidence takes a bit of a hit initially, because everything sort of just requires a little bit more conscious effort and conscious thought. And obviously, you know, dogs all just like humans, respond in different ways to different situations and all of that kind of thing. So... you know, it is a learning curve, but... overall it's gone extremely well.
02:32 S1
As a puppy carer, I pretty much refresh the dog that I've got for want of a better term. And I am joking, but I, you know, give up one puppy, you know, at the end of 12 months and then get another one... and I find it staggering sometimes trying to remind myself of the things that are not natural to a less experienced dog. And I suppose the difference between an eight week old puppy, inexperienced, and a two year old dog experience. Do you find that you know that I guess you were used to a dog that can, you know, really read you?
03:04 S2
Oh yeah. Definitely.
03:06 S1
To a syllable, pretty much.
03:08 S2
Yep. Yeah, very much so. And also, you know, it's it's about... you reading them as well, you know, and understanding that, for example, when you first get a new dog, often they don't have the... attention span or the mental stamina. So you might do... a half hour or an hour's walk and then they'll come home and, and crash for an hour because they're tired, you know. Whereas an older dog, you know, may or may not. So you know, yeah, there are definitely differences in... that regard. But they also just have different personalities. You know, Jenna is quite a sensitive dog. She also has a a bit of an element of stubborn in her, if she doesn't want to do something.
So, you know, it's it's just sort of working around those things and and working out okay when that happens. How, what... does she respond to, you know. And that's just a, so that's just part of that learning curve really I think. But, yeah, look, it was a difficult few months just because we... you know, work's fairly busy, and I was doing quite a bit of travel, so I think... we'd been together about two months when we did our first trip, which was a work trip to Perth from Brisbane.
04:20 S1
Wow.
04:21 S2
That's, you know...
04:22 S1
That's got to be the longest flight that you can take.
04:25 S2
I think, just about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it certainly drags on - like a double episode of Home and Away. You know, when you're sitting on the plane, but, you know... yeah, and that's, so that was... I suppose in some ways a bit of a baptism of fire for Jenna, but... you know, she's... taken it all in her stride, and she's... working very well.
04:47 S1
I guess when it comes down to it, is that the instructors, upon matching you two, were probably quite aware. Or at least you would have informed them that those types of things would be on the card and on the table, and and I guess they'd really have to make sure that they've matched you with the dog... that probably is going to be pretty... yeah, up to the task as far as...
05:07 S2
I think, yes, I think probably the hardest thing is that or where my situations, you know, perhaps a little different to some is that I do because of the job I do, I do travel in unfamiliar environments. So I do kind of need a dog who is fairly resilient and doesn't stress out if we do something different, you know? Whereas for some dogs they do the same route to work each day, the same route to the local shops a few times a week, perhaps. You know, not everybody sort of travels in as many different places as I do.
So that was a big part of one of the... and that was definitely one of the things that I stressed to them during the matching process, that that is something that I need, you know, along along with things like, you know, obviously willingness to toilet on lead, because when you're in a hotel and you've got to find grass or whatever, then that's, you know, you need that. And, you know, there were a few other things around that... we... looked at as part of that matching process.
06:07 S1
And I guess when you say with her being sensitive and what way is she sensitive and how do you kind of.... I guess overcome that in the... ways that you do.
06:17 S2
I think... we had we had one incident where there was just one part of my walk to work that she just didn't like, and we don't to this day, we don't really know why. I don't know whether there was a dog there, whether it smelt strange. There was a particular apartment building that she just didn't like passing, and we don't really know why that was. And... she would literally just stop and refuse to to move. Refuse to go anywhere. Sometimes you could coax her through it. And then once you sort of got, you know, 50 yards up the road, it was like, Oh, okay, let's go then, you know.
You know, and in the end, with that one, we just had to change the route to work so that we didn't go that way. Unfortunately, we had that option that we could do it. But... that was a little bit, a little bit trying for a little while. And as I said, we really don't know what the issue was. Whereas I guess my previous dog, Ebony was just was a, you know, perhaps just a little more easygoing, sort of like, Oh, yeah, okay, whatever, you know, and just didn't, didn't respond to whatever was... bothering Jenna in that scenario. And I really don't know. So, yeah, in that way, she's... a little bit sensitive.
And... the other funny thing, we rehomed Ebony because... my wife has a seeing eye dog as well, and having three big dogs in a small house wouldn't have really worked too well. But we... Ebony came back and stayed with us for a few weeks while her new owners were overseas. And... I took... Ebony out out the back and had a game of Frisbee with her. We got one of these... Kong frisbees that responds quite well to being... you know, the rough and tumble of a dog. And... I came back in and Jenna was a bit sulky that I'd been spending a few minutes with Ebony, and so she decided to ignore me and and spend the rest of the day sitting next to my wife.
So, you know, we're... and that was something, again, that Ebony just didn't do. And my previous dogs haven't done. So when I say she's sort of sensitive in that way... you know, whether you would call it sensitive or whether she's just a little bit more emotionally complex... than what I was used to. That did take a little bit of adjustment.
08:41 S1
It's quite funny that that, like, almost I don't know, maybe it's just that she's kind of thinking, yeah, thinking a bit deeper about things and she's really taking it in and like... yeah, feeling things. Yes. That in the way that Emmett is just, like cool. Yeah. I'm not bothered. That's quite fascinating.
08:59 S2
It is. I mean, we do... call her Little Miss. Thinks too much sometimes. Because that's... but but then, you know, I mean, I guess in one way that's a testament to the matching process, because I'm guilty of doing that myself. Sometimes I overthink things and ruminate on things for too long that I probably shouldn't worry about. So, you know, maybe that's just a testament to the... matching process at SEDA that it's... they've got a closer match than perhaps they even realised.
09:25 S1
Yeah. And I guess when you're, as you said, you're kind of working here and really unfamiliar... places quite a lot is, you probably do need a dog that is, I guess, really able to think and, like, problem solve... in a way. I mean, what, you know...
09:40 S2
Yeah, very much so. Yeah. So probably two things. I think resilience is one thing where, okay, if we if we happen to pick the wrong door and we need to have another go at it to get it right because it's an unfamiliar space, then that's something that I needed. You know, where some dogs will sort of give up and go, Well, I don't know what you want, you figure it out, I'm confused now. And I think, you know, I've probably got fairly reasonable O&M skills myself. So usually between us we can troubleshoot it. But... I do need a dog that'll sort of work with me to troubleshoot that and go, Hang on, maybe that was the wrong way, maybe we'll backtrack to this point and then try the other direction. You know, that sort of thing.
So resilience is a big part of it, I think. And yes, you know, that initiative to be able to think, to be able to find things and, and fortunately, Jenna is very good with that, you know. So find the counter, find the door, those sorts of things she's... really good at and seems to like doing. So she actually seems to thrive on those unfamiliar places. You can sort of tell in her demeanour that, Oh, hey, it's something different, something new, some new challenge I've got to think about.
10:53 S1
I'm not bored anymore.
10:55 S2
That's right. You know, she seems to... be very focused in those sorts of environments, which is really good... because that's, that is sort of part of what, you know, what I need her to do on a fairly regular basis. The other thing that is good is that she... does have a phenomenal memory for places. So... we, my wife and I, have a caravan - we do a bit of camping and, you know, sometimes you might go to a campsite and then you might not go back there for 6 or 8 months. And she seems to remember from one trip to the next - Oh, yeah, we went here last time, you know. So that's, that helps in, in places that you might not visit very often as well.
It's that she seems to remember things... extremely well and be able to repeat them even if you haven't been there for several months. So, you know, in that way, it's good. She's... quite a confident dog. It just means that in, I think in unfamiliar spaces, you have to provide a bit more reassurance and support... and sort of not get flustered when you when something goes wrong, you sort of take a deep breath, go back, try again and... try, not if, even if you are a bit, you know, agitated, you try to not let that show. So, you know, she does need a bit more reassurance in that environment, but... that's that's pretty normal, I think.
12:21 S1
I mean, to be fair, I guess a lot of people are the same, you know, and there's different degrees of how, I guess, either routine oriented we are or how much people like to swap it up. I know, you know, people, you know, they obviously they have the same seat in the kitchen for every, you know, every single meal. And I guess for us, for some dogs, you know, they have specific routes that they like to do and, and others probably less so. So it's quite interesting the thought of like having to, yeah, having to kind of constantly adapt to these new routes and, yes.
12:52 S2
Yeah it is. And and that's where that resilience piece comes in I think. And... Jenna certainly seems to... cope with that really well.
13:02 S1
And so when you are in those new kind of unfamiliar places... what is her role in a hotel? Out of curiosity.
13:12 S2
So really, it's about... the things that I need Jenna to do in that sort of environment are obviously finding the counter, finding the lift, and finding the door to the room. Once we're in the room, I... she comes out of harness. And because it's important for her to have that downtime and be able to wander around, and then I utilise my own O&M skills around the room. So generally what I'll do is sort of have a wander around, and navigate by feel and sort of say, Okay, the desk is there, the bedside tables are there, the bed's there.
You know, I can usually locate the bathroom using... a technique called echolocation. And likewise sort of the windows and, and, or, you know, balcony doors or those sorts of things. Uh, and I'll generally explore and find out where the kettle is and the, the tea and coffee and where I can set up Jenna's Jenny's water bowl and all of those sorts of things. So I kind of have a bit of a wander around myself. And then, that way she can have some downtime while we're in the room and she can have a sleep or, you know, roll around or play with a toy or whatever.
I don't sort of think it's fair to keep her in harness in... a motel room situation, and I don't I don't need to, you know, my own O&M skills are adequate for that. Um, and it's a confined space, too. So there's not really a lot of, you know, you'd be walking from, you know, 3 or 4 steps from the... bed to the bathroom. It would seem ridiculous to harness Jenna for that. So, um, you know, uh, but obviously then as soon as I go out again, you know, I leave the room to maybe go and find dinner or something like that. Then, you know, we harness up and... away we go. And then she will... she's generally very good at finding the room. Once she's been shown the door once she will, she'll find it again. She's got a phenomenal memory for that.
But yeah, in the motel room, it's the same as at home. You know, I we we don't you don't harness our dogs in the house. Unless we're heading out the door. That's their downtime and their time to rummage through the toy box and find a toy that they want. And we, my wife Marion, and I use our own O&M skills, around the home. It's really for the... sort of outdoor space navigation and to and from work and all of those things that... Jenna comes into her own.
15:38 S1
Thank you. Because, yeah, that was a question that I was asked... recently by... a fellow puppy carer who said, Do you use them inside the house? And I said, I... from my knowledge, I think it's pretty, yeah, few and far between if anyone would use a seeing eye dog in the house. But, I know there's that kind of conversation of like, how many, you know, hours in a day does this thing work? And it's not necessarily as many as people might think, depending on the day.
16:03 S2
That's right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for my standard work day, it might be the commute to work, which would be, you know, an hour or so... we might go and grab a coffee, you know, mid-morning across the road, or we might go for a walk during the day and grab some lunch or something like that. Or I might have a couple of meetings or a client appointment or something. And then at the end of the day, obviously the commute home, but generally, if I'm just sort of working at my desk, Jenna just has a sleep, you know, and so Oh, well, nothing exciting happening. I don't have to go anywhere. I'll just have a rest.
16:43 S1
To be fair, I think all of the... show listeners now, anyone who's listened to, you know, any more than one... probably, yeah. Any more than 1 or 2 interviews has probably learnt that, us seeing eye dogs love sleeping when the humans have to be hard at work, whether that's, you know, the gym or... office or people that are doing like, you know, trail running or, you know, going out and about exploring things that you know that are not dog appropriate. The dog spend a lot of time chilling when we're doing hard stuff.
17:13 S2
And I think most of them are quite happy to do that.
17:16 S1
Yeah, and I guess that's the reason why a lot of our dogs are like labs and golden retrievers rather than kelpies, because they don't need to be constantly up and about and doing things.
17:26 S2
That's right. Yes. Yep. Absolutely.
17:30 S1
So one of the things that we, I think touch on a little bit last time and I'm always, like a bit fascinated about the, I guess the developments and some of the access technology would be about using access technology with your dog. Could you talk to us a little bit about some of the things that you use?
17:48 S2
Sure, definitely. So probably one of the... game changes in the last sort of 12 months or so have been the Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses. So these are, they look, for all intents and purposes, like a regular pair of sunnies, you know, whether they're a Ray-Ban. So they're come in a few different styles and colours and all of those sorts of things, but they have a tiny little camera just above the left eye. So the top sort of left hand corner of the frame, and they're also equipped with built in AI. So there's little speakers in the arms of the glasses that when you.
So when you're wearing them, those speakers are very close to your ears. And you can then use that use the built in AI to ask questions. So I can say things like, you know, common one that I'll do is, Hey, Meta, look and tell me what you see. And if I'm, you know, then if I'm looking for a particular shop, I might say, Look and tell me if there's any signage or look and read me any text if I've got a menu.
So a good example of that... we were, we had a weekend away in Melbourne at the end of last year, and... we wanted to do a little bit of shopping. And those listeners from Melbourne might know the Block Arcade in Collins Street. And so I we went into the Block Arcade and we were looking for a couple of things. We were looking for Haig's chocolates, and we were looking for the Charles Dickens Tavern to go and have some lunch. And then we were also looking for a... Birkenstocks... shop.
And so what I did was I would sort of come up to a shop window or a door and I would say, look and tell me what you see. And it would tell me, the glasses would tell me what you know, what was on display, perhaps, or, you know, so or it might say, I see a, what looks like a cafe with lots of tables and chairs and you think, Okay, well, that could be the tavern. So then I would say, Look and tell me if there's any signage... and it might say, Oh, you know, I see a sign that says... and it may or may not be the business that I'm looking for.
So that sort of stuff is really helpful... because it means that... I can sometimes give Jenna more meaningful directions. If I can tap into some of the visual cues, that might be there, you know, and I can know, okay, do we want to go into this shop or is it not the one that I want? So, for example, when I was looking for the Birkenstocks shop, I stood in front of the shop window and I said, Look and tell me what you see. And it said, I see... a shop window with shoes and boots on display. And I said, Look and tell me if there's any signage. And there was, but it wasn't the shop that I wanted.
So it meant I didn't have to go into that one. I thought, okay, I've had a look on my GPS and I'll talk about that in a second. I know it's in this block somewhere, so we'll just go a couple of shops further down and repeat the process. And then I found it - said, you know, I see a shop with... leather sandals in the window. And I said, Look and see if there's any signage. And it said, I see a sign that says Birkenstock. So I was able to to find the shop that I wanted. So that one's definitely... a bit of a game changer, I think.
And just sometimes being able to... get descriptions of things, you know, looking at if you're standing at a table and you're not sure if it's occupied or not, you know, look and tell me if there are any people at this table, that kind of thing. And you can also use it in conjunction with services like Be My Eyes or IRA to get hands-free assistance. So you can be put through to if it's Be My Eyes, a volunteer or if it's IRA, one of their agents. And you can make a video call through the glasses and they can essentially see what you're looking at and give you directions that way. So that's pretty handy as well, because it's hands-free.
Probably the other thing that I use a lot with Jenna is my Stellar Trek GPS. There are a couple of things, even on familiar routes. I used it a bit with within training just so that I could start to cue Jenna, you know, to find a crossing or those kinds of things. It just gave me a little bit more information about what was around. So I found that that actually worked really well. And also things that were maybe a little bit difficult to find initially. You know, I put it, marked it, put a few more landmarks in the device so that I could... find them easily and give her the... reassurance and the confidence to sort of find it first time. So I found that.
22:21 S1
What type of... landmarks, out of curiosity?
22:23 S2
Ah, so things sometimes an entrance to a business that was maybe a little bit hard to identify. You know, a particular crossing where you, you know, it's maybe halfway down a street. So... crossing the road in front of my house, there's not really any landmarks, you know? So I marked that so that when I came up to it, I would hear an alert on the GPS, and I could start to tell Jenna to to find. Right, and find the crossing sort of thing. So things like that, where you might be crossing a road and not at a corner. So it's not, you know, it's not obvious. Those... kinds of things, I found really helpful.
But also with that, it means that I can use things like the map browsing mode, and I can... have a look at a map and I can... have a look at... Okay, so to get from here to here, I'm going to need to cross three roads. And then at the third one I'm going to need to turn left on the up curve... and that kind of thing. So having, being able to look at that ahead of time again, it means that I can be more confident in the directions that I'm giving Jenna. And so that makes her job easier. And also, um, you know, means that she doesn't lose confidence... so I can be a little bit more sure about where we're going and what we're doing. And you normally, then you've got a better chance of getting it right the first or second time.
So, you know, and I think particularly with a new dog, that's actually really important. So using some of those tools in conjunction with... my dog just makes a difference to how smoothly you travel. It makes a difference for me in terms of how willing I am to wander around somewhere unfamiliar. You know, I'm from Brisbane and I'm wandering around the centre of Melbourne, for example. And therefore, you know, it means that Marion and I can go off exploring new places, have a weekend away in Melbourne and actually enjoy, you know, zipping around and shopping and, you know, seeing the various sights and trying the various restaurants and things.
24:20 S1
I mean, it's amazing, especially like it makes me think of, you know, a spy film or like a spy TV series from the 90s where everyone's got, you know, it's like, you know, your shoe is in your phone and you're, you've got these high tech glasses. It's quite cool, isn't it? And quite... I think the thing that is, I don't know, I think is quite cool about it is like it's quite discreet and easy. It doesn't sounds to me like something that, you know, you can really use with kind of total confidence. It's not like some, you know, massive, bulky, you know, you don't have to bring out always and, you know, try to, you know...
24:57 S2
And that's the thing, you know, some of the... those types of devices that have gone before kind of make you look like an alien with a camera sticking out the side of your head. The other thing about those glasses, too, is that they are a consumer, a consumer item. They're an everyday piece of tech, you know that... works for someone with a vision impairment. You know, they that wasn't what they were designed for. They were designed for people to post to their Instagram or their Facebook feed and things like that. But it just sort of happens that they're actually something that we can use.
But the nice thing is that you can get them at any sort of standard sunglass or eyewear type store, you know, and... that they'll... work quite well out of the box with your iPhone or your... Android phone. So it's nice to have a sort of a mainstream off-the-shelf piece of tech that actually works and is a real enabler for us in terms of navigating the environment.
25:56 S1
And can you claim that on NDIS as well?
26:00 S2
Not really. Well, okay, I would say you could, but you would do so at your own risk because they are an everyday item in the same way that a phone is an everyday item or that type of thing. And so it's one of those things you could try and you might get away with it, but you might not, because it technically doesn't meet the guidelines. So my my advice to people is, don't. I didn't - but you know, I can, I know there'll be people who'll who'll jump on me and say, Oh, but I did, and I, you know.
So look, if you want to risk it, by all means. But the reading, the NDIA guidelines, my advice would be that they don't meet the guidelines and that I would generally not recommend that, that you try... and if you do, you do so at your own risk.
26:50 S1
Out of curiosity, do you have a ballpark of how much those would cost?
26:54 S2
They're about $450.
26:57 S1
That's not too bad for something that can enable so much.
27:00 S2
Absolutely. When you think that most of the other blindness-specific wearables come in at 4 or 5 thousand dollars.
27:07 S1
Yeah, that's what I was wondering if it would be....
27:09 S2
Yeah. No... and that's... the thing, you know, that's the... advantage of it being mainstream tech, is that the price comes down - because obviously they can sell them by the million rather than by the thousand. But the disadvantage is that the, you know, they... though a lot of those things are regarded by the agency as a non-disability specific item, an everyday item, and therefore they're not covered, but the fact that they are of a much more reasonable price tag means that, you know, most people could probably save up and, and still, you know, get themselves one.
27:50 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Damien McMorrow, Seeing Eye Dogs handler and Vision Australia's National Access Technology Manager. For part two of my interview with Damo... don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode of the show, or head to your preferred podcast provider.
If you'd like to find out about seeing the work you do or how you can help, you can head to our website at visionaustralia.com. If you'd like help with your access technology, the Access Technology Helpdesk at Vision Australia is available weekdays and business hours, and a little bit later you can call the AT helpdesk at 1300 847 466. That number again is 1300 847 466. And ask for the Access Technology Helpdesk. Or you can email them, AT at Vision Australia dot org. That is again, AT help at Vision Australia. Thank you for listening. And don't forget to tune in, same time next week for another episode of the show. Have a lovely week.
