00:11 S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today I'm going to be joined by Kate Watkins, Seeing Eye Dogs handler, to talk about her personal journey about being a seeing eye dog handler for over 50 years. This is part one of our International Guide Dog Day special. Next week, I'm going to be joined by Lester Schramm, who's going to be talking to us about 65 years of our school.
But we're going to be talking a bit more about Kate's personal journey, the dogs that she's had over that 50 year period... and a little bit about the impact of seeing eye dogs on her life. So without further ado, here is my interview with Kate. Hi, Kate, thanks for joining me on the show today.
00:57 S2
That's all right, Harriet. Thank you for having us.
00:59 S1
So we are in the kind of lead-up to International Guide Dog Day. How long have you been a seeing eye dog handler or dog guide handler for? 50 years? It's a pretty solid amount of time.
01:09 S2
It is, yes. Eight dogs later. There you go. And when I was 19, I looked at this and thought, you know, 50 years is a long way away. Never thought of being of being at the end of it.
01:20 S1
Were you 19 thinking 50 years into the future? No, that's impressive.
01:24 S2
No it wasn't. I was probably thinking five years ahead at the time.
01:29 S1
Maybe two, if you're lucky.
01:30 S2
Yeah, well, that's exactly right.
01:33 S1
So, I mean, it's a long time, I guess, and you would have had a lot of different reflections. But I'm going to start from the very beginning. Do you remember what you know, what made you decide to get a dog or, you know, was there anything in particular or you just always were going to get one?
01:48 S2
My father was actually working for SEDA at the time, so he's got his first dog in 1969. So he'd, SEDA had been running for, you know, sort of, what, ten years almost by then. So he got his first dog, and I could absolutely realise the advantage of it because I was a cane user and I thought, when I leave school, that's what I'm going to do. And that's why I got my first dog.
02:14 S1
And that must have been pretty soon after that.
02:17 S2
Mm, I finished school on the Friday and got my first dog on the next Monday. I started training with my next dog on the Monday. So yes. So, finished HSC and moved straight on to a dog.
02:29 S1
And when you did kind of move straight on to a dog, what was the experience like training with that first dog?
02:36 S2
Very regimented. You came into the school, you basically spent two days, most of the time walking around the streets of Melbourne, holding on to a handle. The other end, which was attached to a trainer. And you never even saw a dog. For the first two days, it was all about learning all the different commands and um, just walking around the streets feeling probably a bit silly walking around holding a handle of a harness. But you know, these these things happen. And yeah, it was a very regimented environment. It was four weeks training for your first dog. It was all residential. So that's how it worked. It was five and a half. You had you had Sundays off, if I remember. Rightly so.
It was pretty, pretty full on. Um, breakfast, lunch and dinner were, um, basically done in the dining room. You... had times when you trained. You had times when you brushed your dog's, you know, there was a set time for feeding. You had a diet that you had to learn about. So it was a very regimented environment.
03:41 S1
Well, and and now what has, what was your last... training period like, two weeks?
03:48 S2
First week I did as home training. So in my own environment. I like doing it that way because I'm settled. So. Which means I can be calmer and more settled for the dog as I start training with them. It's my environment, not kensington's environment, which I don't know that well. So I know all the places I want to learn in that first week with the dog. And the dog settles down much more quickly because he's at home with you. You're confident in what you're doing and where you're going, and it seems to me that the dog moves into that comfortable environment with you more quickly.
And the second week I spent at SEDA, simply because I live a fair way away. And I wanted to... do a lot of work in the city because I go to the city a fair bit, and it was going to be, you know, an hour's travelling each time I wanted to do that or stay at SEDA for that week. So that's what I did. And that was it. Done, finished.
04:45 S1
And I guess that's one of those things where, with the benefit of all of your experience, your class probably was a little bit less training as opposed to fine tuning or...
04:55 S2
Very much those things. Yeah. And teaching this particular dog a whole pile of things like, you know, where the mailbox for the office was and things like that. You know, in a wall of post office boxes, Kramer had to learn which one was the one I wanted him to go to. Things like that. So did a lot of other work travelling around the city. So walking through all the laneways at lunchtime, which are really busy, and getting him very confident in doing things like that, so very different from the very regimented type of training that was done when I got my first dog. The boxes still have to be ticked, so you have to achieve certain things.
But you know, for someone who's had a few dogs, you're going to achieve those things a lot more quickly. And what you're doing is you're, because you know what you want this dog to achieve, you know, after a few dogs, they're the things you're going to go to a higher level of concentrating and doing what you're doing with them.
05:50 S1
And I guess as well, one of the things that might have changed in that time, too, is even the types of dogs that are around and, you know, the environment that you're working in, I assume would be quite different too, and you've got different obstacles, things like, you know, people on phones or, you know, different amounts of crowds and that type of stuff in...
06:08 S2
Very much so. You know, I mean, I got my first dog 50 years ago. It was a very different environment from what it is today, much quieter... you know, much... no mobile phones, which is a huge difference to these dogs because not only do they have to now watch obstacles, they've now got to even be more aware of people because they're not looking where they're going to. There's... advantages. There's a lot more audible signals, obviously, than when I was, you know, back then, audible signals didn't even exist at traffic lights. So that that side of it has changed a lot.
But the dogs themselves, you know, they've still got four legs and a tail and they, you know, still love you to pieces. They haven't changed. Probably their breeding has changed a bit, but the basic dog really hasn't changed much at all. You know, they're still, to me, labs and retrievers are still great working dogs.
07:05 S1
The cues are all kind of still quite similar, I assume.
07:08 S2
Yeah, absolutely. You know, the commands haven't changed very much, but it's the intensity of life is what has changed a lot. You know, the traffic has changed a lot. They're the things that have changed. As I said, dealing with people with mobile phones has changed things. But the actual everyday to day work with them hasn't really altered.
07:30 S1
I was thinking as well, something that might have that I wondered if you'd see as a handler or that you'd, I guess, feel as a handler would be... the difference in training methods. I know, you know, we talk a little bit from our side of our side of the training is like a lot more positive reinforcement, a lot more like rewards based training compared to, you know, I guess the standard and how they were trained was, you know, positive reinforcement. And that type of training is quite recent in the history of our industry.
08:01 S2
Seeing eye dogs, it's always been positive reinforcement. A good pat on the head. Tell them they're a good boy or a good girl or whatever. If they made a mistake, they weren't ground out so much as they were taken back to do it again. There wasn't, you know, a lot of growling. There was more, Go back, do it a second time. And the dog got the message. Oh, I did it wrong the first time. That's fine. If they over walked a curb, you didn't growl at them. You just simply said No. Walked back and did it a second time. And the dog got the message very loud and very clear. Oops. Didn't do that right. Oops.
So the difference is, of course, there was no food rewards involved with SEDA back then. It didn't happen. But the reward system was still there. It was just a variation of basically the same type of thing. You know, we didn't do rewards, food rewards. We did positive, give them a pat on the head rewards. Yeah, exactly.
08:51 S1
And I guess actually the reworking thing is still something that we do to this day, I believe, when I've spoken to Kylie at least. Yeah. But maybe, you know, it's different not using food. I feel like I'm always touching dog kibble, personally, as a puppy carer.
09:06 S2
Well, see, my dog doesn't work on food rewards. I've specifically requested that I don't do that and the school respected that. So he doesn't actually work on food rewards. He works on, works very much on positive response to what he does. He very rarely over walks a curb or anything like that. He walks up to the to the light post and things like that, simply because basically that's part of what he does. And he understands that. Now everybody, every dog is different. There is no question about that. So I just happen to have a dog that knows what his role is. And for the most part, he does it quite well.
09:43 S1
I assume for you and him, you know, a large part of that motivation is also the bond that you've got together.
09:49 S2
I would say so, yeah. You know, we work very well together. I think he's absolutely divine. So, you know, I'm just a little bit biased.
09:58 S1
No, no, no, no bias, no bias. But I think one of the things that we've spoken about, a few times, is you've got a friend who's got a seeing eye dog who's very different. And I think that's really amazing. You know, you could if you swapped your dogs, how would that work?
10:13 S2
I'd do my head in. Really. I mean, don't get me wrong, he's beautiful. I love him to pieces, her dog, but he's not my dog. He's not a dog I would enjoy working because he has a whole different way of doing things. And I'm very used to these. A dog like Kramer, who you say, Come on, we're doing this. And off he goes, you know, and he just gets it. And we it's almost we have a mental telepathy with each other. I love dogs who you can say will do this. And, you know, this dog is going to step up to it. He, you don't have to even think about it.
I came back from Bendigo a few weeks ago and we got off at Platform 8 at Southern Cross Station, and all I had to say to Kramer was Home. I didn't have to give him another command. He walked out of the regional area. He walked round to the lift, up two levels, straight down to Platform 10. And I thought, that's the type of dog I want.
11:16 S1
I mean, and I guess for your friend, her dog is perfect for her.
11:20 S2
Absolutely.
11:21 S1
It would be like the other way round. She'd probably be not appreciating Kramer's abilities or his specific...
11:29 S2
No, because she likes to have more control. I'm happy for Kramer to to take the lead because I know he has the ability to do that. Now, not every dog would have the ability. They need the reassurance of you saying, Go left, go right, find the lift. Kramer actually doesn't need that. He he needs you to tell him ultimately what you want him to do. And he will just go do it. But there aren't that many dogs that will do it like that, Harriet. Most of them need that constant reassurance to know that they're actually the next step is this step. And the next step is this step. And you... get to the top of the lift, and then you go forward and you go through the gates. And then you have to find the... lift [?cream]. You just say Home. And that was it. It was great.
12:14 S1
And I guess for you really, a lot of that confidence that he's got probably comes from the fact that, you know...
12:19 S2
I've let him learn to do it.
12:20 S1
And that you yourself, you know, it's like second nature to you.
12:23 S2
And I know and I know... he's going to do it. You know, this is the thing I have the confidence to know that this dog will do this, because I've given him the opportunity to learn to do things like that. That's how it works.
12:36 S1
So when you have been... I guess thinking about, you know, having another dog or not, has there ever been a question or what makes you come back and not question it? You know what I mean?
12:48 S2
I know what you mean. I think it's, I suppose part of it's loyalty to a particular organisation. I've always been happy with the dogs I've got from Seeing Eye Dogs. I haven't had any queries about, you know, they're not up to the scratch for... the, for my purposes. I've had dogs that have suited particular stages of my life. And I think that's a good thing that that, you know, when I got my second dog, I had a two year old toddler and a three month old baby. I did not need the get up and go, you know, have to run everywhere type of dog. I needed the dawdler and I got the dawdler, you know, and I think that's how you look at it.
You look at the dog that you've got for that part of your life. And have they done a good job in matching you to that dog for that part of your life? And I've never queried that. I've always been happy, and I've always come back to SEDA and said, I need to retire this dog... because of this, this, this and this. And that's exactly what's happened. And that's probably why I keep coming back.
13:48 S1
And then they find the right dog and let you know, timing wise.
13:51 S2
Look, the one before Clayton, I gave them a year's notice that I needed a new dog walker. Selwood was heading towards ten years old and I said I don't believe he should be working another summer. Selwood was a big dog and I said I don't think it's in his best interest to work through another hot summer. So I'm giving you 12 months notice that I'll need a new dog. And they found me a new dog within that 12 month period, which was great. And then when Clayton retired, there was discussions about, you know, what would be the best way to go. And... we decided it would be in his best interest to retire. And, you know, they sort of said it could be, you know, a couple of months. And that's exactly what it was, which was fine.
14:36 S1
And looking back on some of those dogs you've had, can you tell us a bit about, I guess, each of them or how they've corresponded to your life as well?
14:44 S2
Troika was my first dog, and she was the world's best seeing eye dog, but the world's worst dog to own. She was she was a great working dog. She was brilliant as a working dog. Nothing could distract her ever. Her downside was she was a bitch. And basically, if you made a mistake, she made you pay for it, and she'd sulk. And that's why I like the boys. But she was, she worked until she was 12.5. She was an amazing dog. She weighed a whole 20 kilos, if you were lucky.
15:16 S1
Wow.
15:17 S2
And she was. She was truly an unusual little dog. But she was a great dog because she was my first dog. And I learnt how to work a seeing eye dog because of Troika. Because she made you work. You know, as I said, if I said Left and I meant right, she'd say, You said left. We're going left. She was that type of dog. She knew, she absolutely knew that you messed up and, you know, but she taught me so much about how to handle a dog, and that was great.
Abby was my second dog. She was the one I got when I had the two little, little babies. And she really was just that beautiful, soppy Labrador. She was beautiful. She worked till she was ten and she was an absolute delight of a dog. She was every every child in the world loved Abby because she would just lay there and they'd all cuddle up to her. And she was brilliant at what she did. And I was a mum. I stayed at home, we went to kindergarten and playgroup and that's all she had to do in the world, you know, and she was quite happy doing things like that. She was fine. She wasn't a dog that would suit me now, but she suited me at that time and that's what I wanted.
And then I got the drop dead gorgeous golden retriever Tease who thought she was eating a bit, and she was... and she was a flirt. And she'd sit on the train and she'd sit up. She would never lay under the seat because, oh, my God, if I lay under the seat, you can't see me. And she'd smile at people and she'd wink at people, and she'd flick her ears at people. And she was a stunner. And she... did her job and she did it well. But there was this constant battle between, I'm a working dog and Oh my God, but I'm gorgeous! So she was a funny dog.
Then we got quarry, who was a beautiful little retriever cross. Devoted little fella. Absolutely my dog. Nobody else's dog in the world, he was. He belonged to me and nobody else. He just... we bonded, and it never changed. And even after he retired, he went... and he went to live with a friend of mine. And I never saw him once because he was fine with them. But as soon as he saw me, he went right backwards, really, really badly. And for the first four weeks after he saw me, that once he'd sit at the door each night and just cry. So we didn't see him again because it was just too hard on him. It didn't work because he loved being where he was, but I was his, I was his bonding, bonded person for life. And you know, you're never going to change it.
After quarry, I got Keana, who was a very independent. I couldn't say she was stubborn. She wasn't stubborn. She was just her own person. She oozed personality and her attitude was, I'm a working dog and I work for you. But when you take my harness off, I think I belong to the world. And she did. She belonged to everybody. And everybody loved Keana. She was such a sweet creature. And we actually kept Keana. We'd never kept a dog before, but we kept Keana. She had a few health issues, and we decided we could handle them better than trying to explain it to other people. And she lived till she was 14, and she was an absolute delight of a dog.
And her and Sellwood, who was my next dog, were best mates, loved each other to bits. So I got Sellwood, who was a beautiful big retriever cross. He was sponsored by the Sellwood footballers and others and he was full on is the only way I can describe Sellwood. He was absolutely full on. It was. How many kilometres do you need to walk a day to keep you nice and happy, puppy? Because he had more energy than any dog I'd ever owned. But he was a great working dog. He was, he and Kramer would have been the closest in that respect that they learnt, and they absorbed information - and very different dogs, from the point of view that Kramer is such a laid back little dog and Selwood was full on, but their abilities to do things are very similar.
And... I think that's how you look at them that that they both had that attribute that I was talking about before, that you let them learn stuff and they just absorb it all in. And the more you teach them, the better dog they become for it. And some dogs can do it and some dogs can't. And we should never, ever say, Oh, well, you know, Kramer can do that- why can't you do that? to the next dog, because that next dog is a different dog, you know. They're all different. They'll never be the same. Two dogs.
And then Selwood retired and I got the lovely Clayton, who was very much a SEDA-born and bred dog. He was bred by SEDA. He was raised by a SEDA employee. He came to us, a Vision Australia client, who was me, and I also worked for Vision Australia. And he's gone back to his puppy care who still works for Vision Australia. So he's so much a SEDA dog, that one, and he's very happy. He's turns ten today, so it's a big day for him. Happy birthday to my beautiful Clayton. And he's very content in his old age being an old retired dog. And then we got Kramer, who's just gorgeous.
20:39 S1
And it's a full circle of a lot of different personalities.
20:42 S2
Totally.
20:42 S1
Different. And like you said, they've all been different stages. So I do think it's funny you said about you don't like the bitches as much anymore, but all of your first ones were, the first ones were girls.
20:52 S2
The first three were girls.
20:53 S1
And now it's become boys.
20:55 S2
Yeah, except for Keana, the rest have been all boys. But you know what? If I could find another dog like Abby, I'd have another girl any day of the week. Or Keana? Probably. But I don't want another Troika. Troika was hard work, you know? She just, she was everything I think you'd say a bitch is, not the part of what you want. Because they can be such difficult dogs, you know? Whereas the boys, you say, Don't do that. Okay, I'll be good. You say to a girl and they say, Get stuffed.
21:23 S1
Although maybe it just matched 19 year old you. It was like...
21:27 S2
Probably did. The challenge. At the time, I absolutely needed a challenge. And by jingo, she made me work hard. She just made you think. And you think, you thought really hard about how you did things with that dog. That's all you know. But I like the ease of the boys, because the boys are such nice creatures to get along with. They don't push your buttons, you know. They just... want you to love them dearly. So, you know, they don't... I don't think they need to prove themselves to you. I think they just accept that, you know, you're always going to be there for them and you're going to give them a cuddle and you're going to give them a pat on the head and you're going to say, Good boy. And they're happy with that. Sounds like my husband. Oh, dear.
22:07 S1
Just a little bit of gentle validation. Yeah. That's it. Yes. That'll do. You know, I'm sure if you had to pick your husband and your dog, your husband wouldn't want to hear.
22:15 S2
No. Probably not. Yeah. And I think you have to accept each dog, you know, with its own shortcomings and its own attributes, and accept it for what it is. And I often say to clients who are going to retire a dog, what you do is you work your new dog all day, and when you go to bed, you very quietly say in your head, good night to your old dog, because you don't ever compare the two during the day. It's not how it works because dogs are intuitive animals and they'll pick up on it every single time.
22:50 S1
And I guess it's nice for you to still have some contact with Clayton and know that he's happy in retirement.
22:55 S2
Absolutely.
22:56 S1
But I'm assuming there's no guilt. You know there's no guilt. He obviously wouldn't want to be working now anyway.
23:01 S2
No, no. He's very happy being a retired dog with three little girls. Four little girls who absolutely dote on him, um, and get spoilt rotten. And I saw him before Christmas. We, um, we caught up for lunch before Christmas and it was lovely, but he went off with his carer very happily. So that's the main thing.
23:20 S1
What are the things that you find interesting or that you enjoy about being a handler?
23:24 S2
Oh, obviously the companionship would be, you know, right up there with the top of the list. And I think knowing that I can pretty well go anywhere. You know, I don't need to be guided. I don't need to ask for assistance unless I actually want to. And that feeling of total independence that I can get from point A to point B is just the best thing. We've had a very long day today, and we've gone everywhere from Upper Ferntree Gully to Mount Evelyn to Melbourne and back out to Kooyong, you know, and we've done that all on public transport and just done it ourselves. It's been great.
24:05 S1
Do you have a step counter on your watch or phone?
24:07 S2
Ah, yes. We probably average about 20,000 steps a day.
24:11 S1
I was going to say it's it's in the... tens of thousands.
24:14 S2
It is. Yes it is. That's why the dog got short legs.
24:18 S1
I mean, Kramer is not the tallest dog in the world.
24:22 S2
Definitely not.
24:23 S1
But he actually does have a fair turn of speed, I feel.
24:26 S2
He can trot along very nicely, and but I don't. I don't need him to be fast all the time. So if he wants to settle into a nice, easygoing pace, I'm quite happy for him to do that. Because if I'm asking him to walk for 5 or 6 Ks or whatever it is, I'm not going to make him go at a rapid speed for that whole time, because all I'm going to do then is where the poor dog out. So we just got a nice steady pace. But yes, he's got short legs. Definitely got short legs.
24:56 S1
Just to finish off, is there anything else that you would like to share with our listeners anything about? You know, I guess being a handler or your 50 years of handling or even potentially advice that you would give to someone who's considering having having a seeing eye dog?
25:10 S2
You need to want to have the dog. Don't do it because someone else has said you need to get a dog. That's not a good enough reason for getting a dog. You need... to know that you want that dog not because someone else has suggested it. As far as the changes I've seen over the years, I think the biggest single change would be the communication between clients and the school and the trainers, and how dogs are now chosen for people. We never had the opportunity to actually trial dogs. For the first four dogs I got, it was basically you put your name down and you were rung up and said, We've got a dog for you. Now, this one will do.
25:57 S1
Non-negotiable.
25:58 S2
No. Well, just never happened. You know, it just was, This is the dog that's going to suit you. You went into the school and you started training, you know, but you'd never met that dog beforehand. You didn't know anything about the dog before you walked into the school on the first day of your training. Nowadays, you know, they ring you and they say, Look, we've got a dog. You want to take it for a walk, see how it goes for you? If it's not right, let us know and we'll see what else is available. And I think that's a huge step forward because it gives you an opportunity to think, Oh, okay, this will be interesting. See how we go with it.
But you don't have any guilt in saying, Well, no, that one's not going to work for me. You know, you don't want that guilt. You want to say, look, it walks too slow or I'm sorry, it's too big or it walks too fast or I can't face a golden retriever. and the grooming that goes with it. So you've got the opportunities, you know, to to basically review the situation before you even start training. And I think that's a great thing.
And the other huge thing that I can see that's changed with seeing our dogs is our opportunity to talk to if both sides want it to the dogs, puppy carers, that is wonderful because it gives you a insight into what your dog was like as a puppy, and it probably answers a lot of questions as to why your dog does this or that or the other. And I think that's a huge step forward. And not everybody, not every client or every puppy carer wants to do that. But at least nowadays the opportunity is there to do that and that's really, really good.
27:41 S1
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting with me today, Kate.
27:45 S2
That's all right, Harriet. It's been great.
27:52 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Kate Watkins, talking about her story of being a seeing eye dog handler for over 50 years.
If you'd like to find out more about seeing eye dogs, the work we do, becoming a volunteer, or even a handler, head to our website at [?] This was only Part 1 of our International Guide Dogs Day. Special International Guide Dogs Day this year in 2025 is the 30th of April. So next week we're going to be joined by Lester Schram, Client Services Manager at Seeing Eye Dogs, who's going to be talking about 65 years of our school and some of the highlights throughout that time. So please tune in same time next week for that episode.
You can find more episodes of this and other Great Vision Australia radio shows on your preferred podcast provider or on the FM platform. Thank you for listening and have a lovely week.
